Transformation as Strategy: The Data Center Race: Can Nuclear Meet America's Energy Demand?

00:00:06: Hello,

00:00:06: everyone.

00:00:06: And welcome to Transformation as Strategy a podcast brought you by the experts at Rollin' Burger Americas where we explore fresh perspectives and practical strategies to help business owners create a lasting competitive edge.

00:00:20: I'm your host Mckenzie Puttesy.

00:00:21: The topic for this episode is powering the data center boom and trends shaping US energy and utility demand.

00:00:29: Joining me today's conversation is Mike Gronowski partner and head of Energy & Utilities in North America at Rollin' Burger Americas.

00:00:37: Hello, Mike!

00:00:37: And welcome to the show.

00:00:39: Hi Mackenzie thanks for having me today.

00:00:41: Of course excited to have you here.

00:00:44: so start us off.

00:00:45: Mike could you tell us just a little bit more about your role at Rollenburger?

00:00:49: Yes I lead the energy utility practice and what we call our regulated infrastructure platform Energy from upstream through midstream gas and oil.

00:01:04: our focus is primarily downstream on electric and natural gas utilities And the ecosystem around that.

00:01:11: so we will serve The equipment manufacturers who served the electric in natural gas industry as well As the investors, and some of the service companies as well.

00:01:25: Okay Excellent thank you.

00:01:28: So as AI-driven data center growth accelerates, power availability has become a critical constraints of course.

00:01:37: I want to dig in here off the top and ask you how our datacenter operators securing access to reliable power today?

00:01:44: What is the rise of direct nuclear power agreements signal for the future energy procurement?

00:01:50: Well we've seen it think very interesting evolution aspirations and requirements for the main hyperscalars, and the data center developers.

00:02:02: We've gone from in the last four years a hundred percent renewable to one-hundred percent clean.

00:02:09: And really what is a power now clean later strategy?

00:02:13: So we're seeing quite a bit of The low hanging fruit I'll call it get snapped up.

00:02:21: You know direct PPAs with nuclear plants as you referenced.

00:02:26: I think the most famous is AWS and Talon.

00:02:30: what the Susquehanna plant?

00:02:32: it's over two gigawatts And they're taking most of that output.

00:02:36: Yeah, we're seeing another a trend as well where Plants are being life extended and upgraded.

00:02:44: And you're seeing perhaps the meta-deal with Vistra, where that's an element of power purchase agreements they are executing.

00:02:55: We will see it elsewhere.

00:02:57: from low hanging fruit we have some more difficult access to nuclear and is in form opening previously closed even partially decommissioned plants.

00:03:11: The Crane Energy Center, formerly Three Mile Island is very famous one there.

00:03:18: There are others.

00:03:19: Palisades being reopened by Holtec and you've got Dwayne Arnold that's looking as though it may get re-opened.

00:03:26: Kewani might be repowered.

00:03:29: so You have a great interest in nuclear power As clean source now got a short runway to it, and the power requirements or demands for data centers well exceed that quantity of capacity.

00:03:48: And so you're seeing number deals being done.

00:03:51: these are longer term in nature.

00:03:53: this is part later strategy.

00:03:56: many hyper scalars developers working directly with nuclear OEMs and develop nuclear power plants for data center, power consumption in the not so distant future.

00:04:10: So spectrum of activity along uh...the nuclear topic.

00:04:16: and we're seeing all it being executed almost on a daily basis now today.

00:04:24: Exciting stuff you know I feel some these older nuclear plans that are brought up.

00:04:29: they have this storybook or film like persona in history, so it's interesting to know that this is happening and see it happen.

00:04:41: And then I want kind of pick your brain a little bit around.

00:04:44: what are these newer smaller reactors?

00:04:47: That they're hitting the market or people looking into because there some small you can almost drop them anywhere for one city something like that nature.

00:04:59: Well, you know we could yeah.

00:05:00: We should give respect where it is due.

00:05:03: and You know there is a large conventional Alternative the AP-one thousand that we've built several of them in China.

00:05:12: We've built two of them In Georgia to some not so good fanfare on the schedule And budget.

00:05:20: but those reactors are probably going to run for eighty to one hundred years.

00:05:28: solid reliable clean performing asset for a very long time.

00:05:33: And so, you know, You see it in the news where Westinghouse and Brookfield who owns a portion of Westing house?

00:05:39: The eighty billion dollar deal with the current administration.

00:05:42: the LPO came out yesterday literally with seventeen billion loan support For that program and we want to build It's a goal That's been set ten of those reactors In North America.

00:05:58: Yep, ten gigawatts.

00:06:00: Great!

00:06:00: That's only a portion of what we're going to need in small portions at that... ...to power.

00:06:07: the aspirations are of the hyperscalers and data center developers.

00:06:11: So there is new class of asset that is Small Modular Reactors, SMRs as people call them.

00:06:20: Some of them are light-water reactors like the AP- one thousand.

00:06:24: Those are being constructed right now.

00:06:26: You've got construction underway on the G hitachi technology in Canada.

00:06:32: There are others waiting in the wings to deploy that technology.

00:06:37: The interesting part Of the SMR landscape is what's called generation four here at the United States or AMR In Europe and these are Reactors that are not based on light water.

00:06:51: They're based on other coolants, other moderators and the thing about those is That they are in order of magnitude safer than lightwater.

00:07:01: Now that's not saying that you know the Vogel an AP- one thousand And all of the SMRs that are based on Light Water Are NOT very safe.

00:07:10: These plants are designed such that The reactor cannot be put into condition where the fuel can melt.

00:07:19: And so when we look at what the data centers and hyperscalars are doing, they're partnering with the Gen-IV reactor designers.

00:07:28: They do it because of that inherent safety.

00:07:32: It is literally walk away or back to many designs where it cannot put itself into a condition in which fuel was damaged.

00:07:42: That's very popular thing.

00:07:43: you can a w?

00:07:45: s with x energy betta with x-energy google is with um, it's with kairos uh microsoft obviously as with terra power mr gates his funding terapower a nuclear oem.

00:08:00: so we see great deal of interest in this more advanced safer technology.

00:08:05: and because that safety you can really put those facilities just about anywhere.

00:08:12: I worked at a nuclear power plant in the beginning of my career.

00:08:15: We had a ten-mile emergency zone around the plant and it was because if something went sideways that's when you lived within your own, then you'd get phone calls.

00:08:26: It is not the phone call obviously but with these new origin for technologies The Emergency Planning Zone Is At The Building Wall.

00:08:35: So it is that much safer, basically put right downtown if you would like.

00:08:41: I don't think this will happen but certainly next to an industrial facility like ExEnergy's doing without chemical in Texas and you can put it in proximity the population.

00:08:53: whereas with older designs very safe and reliable You didn't put them as close to populations centers than these.

00:09:02: That's incredible.

00:09:03: I imagine it puts a lot of people at ease because before, you know...I just think there's so much fear and stigma around nuclear.

00:09:14: And some of these kind-of big meltdowns that have happened throughout history.

00:09:18: So knowing that you couldn't even enter the conditions to have that should hopefully have people feeling more relaxed and excited to take this on.

00:09:28: it's a very strong selling point and one that has convinced what we're formerly you know not very popular on nuclear people in the hyper scalar industry.

00:09:39: And i think no in communities and especially in the younger demographics of population is so clean technology.

00:09:50: why aren't we using?

00:09:51: So I think you'll see quite a bit about change along The lines of you know, is nuclear good?

00:09:59: should we use it?

00:10:00: I think that were past the no nukes phase Of our demographic if you will

00:10:07: gotcha.

00:10:08: Well, exciting.

00:10:08: You mentioned a few big names there, AWS, Brookfield, Meta... So there's definitely been significant investor interest in nuclear energy.

00:10:18: but valuations alone don't tell this full story I imagine.

00:10:22: so i'm gonna ask you what milestones should industry leaders watch to determine if nuclear deployment is truly gaining this momentum that we might be expecting and as it if its able to scale?

00:10:34: Well, I think one of the things you just touched on valuations is that there has been pretty strong market receptivity for the nuclear technology.

00:10:45: And so a number IPO or SPAC, whatever you want to characterize it.

00:10:52: But they've accessed the public capital markets and the response has been reasonably positive.

00:10:58: now You see fluctuations in valuation from day-to-day month to month.

00:11:05: but just the fact that these new companies can access Capital Markets do so In a way that is reasonably valued is a great positive.

00:11:18: So that alone, it's something we wanted to see a couple of years ago as we could access public markets.

00:11:26: I think

00:11:27: there are

00:11:28: other milestones starting to see accelerate.

00:11:35: when Akins Real assigned the real deal with Ontario Power Gen to re-power Darlington that was you know a watershed moment.

00:11:46: We had an EPC That signed up to do the construction.

00:11:49: we want to see more of that, we've seen a lot of deals Of interest or memorandums of understanding and will make it deal later kind of deals?

00:11:59: We'd like to see More of the real ironclad were gonna actually build this.

00:12:04: put shovels in the ground.

00:12:05: Deals get done.

00:12:06: I think we'll see those In.

00:12:08: You Know The next twelve eighteen twenty four months And that would be another you know big milestone that people will be making commitments and spending real money, starting to move ground.

00:12:20: And put facilities into construction.

00:12:25: so we'd like to see more of that You.

00:12:28: the other thing I think were seeing beyond The public capital being brought on.

00:12:34: the industry is private capitol.

00:12:36: it's also been brought.

00:12:40: There's two avenues that are very positive.

00:12:42: One, there is a great deal of interest in nuclear component manufacturers whether it's you know existing entities rolling up smaller or private capital interested and rolling up That kind of production capability?

00:13:00: They're real money bets being made on this being a long run And solid business.

00:13:07: The other thing that's lining up is capital, that will be deployed to construct these facilities.

00:13:15: So typically you'll have a construction capital stack once it's done and goes through an ownership of our Capital Stack.

00:13:22: That Construction Capital Stack while very nascent as starting the take shape And again thats'a very important milestone To getting Facilities in-the-ground constructed.

00:13:39: Thanks for that, Mike.

00:13:40: I think it was a great lay of the land there.

00:13:43: and Before we go a bit deeper if you like anyone listening is probably Pretty interested in nuclear at this point.

00:13:51: But i'd be curious to get kind of a brief overview Of.

00:13:55: You know If We're Questioning The Idea Is This Scalable?

00:14:00: What's Gonna Take Us Into The Future?

00:14:01: And Some Of Those Demands?

00:14:03: Where Does It Sort Of?

00:14:04: Compare This at this point with some of the other options, you know if we're looking at hydro or solar?

00:14:12: Or are there power options?

00:14:14: yeah You don't I think in In The u.s.. I should say and i can't Say north america because canada has aspirations to build quite a bit Of hydro.

00:14:24: they still have capacity In many of their waterways to do so.

00:14:28: the United States we're probably are not going build any significant hydro Going into the future.

00:14:33: We have a good deal of it already.

00:14:37: It is in you know, many ways environmentally challenged.

00:14:41: They are huge projects.

00:14:43: You do dam up rivers and there are no impacts associated with that.

00:14:47: But yeah by enlarge?

00:14:50: We've done pretty much all that we can do on a large scale.

00:14:54: To begin Wind solar storage are going to have their role.

00:15:00: I think those roles will vary as we look into the future, but one of the most energy-dense reliable always on and dispatchable resources is nuclear.

00:15:14: And for the data center load profile and Energy requirements that it fits the Nuclear bill a lot better than the intermittent nature of wind, solar even when it's matched with storage.

00:15:31: So there are very few other solutions today that can fit that bill.

00:15:37: you could go and look at carbon capture in sequestration.

00:15:41: That is geographically challenged.

00:15:42: You only do this where you can actually sequester the carbon And people talk about nuclear waste as being a long time problem.

00:15:53: Carbon in the ground is forever problems, if that carbon comes out we're going to have a lot of problems.

00:15:58: and then there are others.

00:15:59: you could look at hydrogen extraordinarily expensive multiples on how much nuclear costs.

00:16:07: so thats not great idea for base load power or dispatchable powers.

00:16:12: well Geothermal, very nascent right now.

00:16:15: Again geographically challenged.

00:16:17: if you've got good geography You could do geothermal.

00:16:20: it's a great resource.

00:16:22: There are some advances being made and we can talk later about what the future looks like.

00:16:27: but today If you want clean dispatchable power nuclear is what you have And people taking advantage of

00:16:35: it Exciting stuff.

00:16:38: So yeah thanks for doing that as well.

00:16:42: talk a little bit more about some of those barriers that experts are citing around scaling nuclear.

00:16:48: Now, we've kind of got all the cards on the table.

00:16:50: and then also what would it take to accelerate deployment?

00:16:53: And where do you see the most critical bottlenecks going on right now

00:16:56: today?".

00:16:57: Yeah!

00:16:57: That's a great question.

00:16:58: You know there are a number of things that need to be stood up or re-stood in order to facilitate large build out of nuclear fuel is a big one.

00:17:13: We had been getting quite bit of our fuel from Russia and in particular, Russia provided the kind-of fuel called HALU.

00:17:22: it's higher enriched fuel that going to go into number generation for reactor designs.

00:17:30: we're not gonna be getting HALO from russia.

00:17:32: so need stand that fuel supply chain up ourselves.

00:17:39: We're going to need more uranium mining.

00:17:41: So we need all of those things.

00:17:42: the support You know any kind of growth in any way that we see In nuclear are going forward.

00:17:49: so, so that's a big A big concern.

00:17:53: now The US government has been behind it for multiple administrations To stand those supply chains up to make it easier or two build facilities to build mines Etc... That is underway.

00:18:08: The other thing that I think is a limiting factor, and it's not often talked about.

00:18:14: Is going to be the people.

00:18:16: To actually build an operate the plants we need engineers And then not just nuclear engineers.

00:18:23: We need mechanical engineers with electrical engineers and even beyond That.

00:18:27: Just pure craft-and-trades People mechanics pipe fitters electricians instrument techs.

00:18:35: there It's a finite supply And we're building a lot of things in the United States today, and were all going to be drawing from that finite supply of engineers and craft labor.

00:18:46: So thats gonna have to change!

00:18:48: We've got a lot programs in place to make it happen.

00:18:53: they are doing great jobs.

00:18:55: I think its very good thing for economy but we gotta build up from a place where it was kind of steady state doldrums to more growth trajectory type profile on that resource.

00:19:13: Right,

00:19:14: so if you're university student out there might want think about getting into an engineering role for this?

00:19:20: There will be plenty spots open!

00:19:23: Excellent Mike, you mentioned the last few administrations have been pretty solid and cohesive around support for this.

00:19:33: I want to go a little deeper on what you think the role government should play in enabling next generation of nuclear projects?

00:19:42: What aspects of industry should public policy focus specifically?

00:19:47: Well...I'll talk about direct government's support first And then deal with the nrc or other regulatory environment second and so that for a number of administrations.

00:20:02: now, it doesn't depend on republican or democrat we've had great support.

00:20:08: For the nuclear industry you can see that like early advance reactor programs supporting.

00:20:17: I mentioned the Dow Chemical and Ex-Energy Facility that's supported heavily by the DOE.

00:20:25: The DOE also has a loan program office, as I mentioned earlier—the support for development of AP-one thousands.

00:20:34: in giving some kind of line of sight to investors on loaning dollars is extremely important.

00:20:48: One of the things that we hear from not just our utility clients, but you know, end users and hyper scalers in others developers who would develop these facilities as some kind a backstop cost overrun particularly for first couple of reactors going to be built And i kind of like it at two.

00:21:13: uh you know we have this thing called price anderson.

00:21:16: In the nuclear industry is an insurance backstop.

00:21:21: your nuclear plant if things go really bad can get really bad.

00:21:24: so insurance companies get nervous about that government back stops, so i could see something where the government has like a fail.

00:21:33: safe things go real bad.

00:21:36: okay you can access this facility.

00:21:40: I'm sure there will be strings and penalties attached, but there's a backstop that gives people comfort.

00:21:47: That they're not exposed infinitely to cost overruns.

00:21:54: so you know i don't know the DOE is talking about that?

00:21:58: I do know several people in industry who are talking something like that But would very supportive of early stage development.

00:22:08: Yeah, the NRC always comes up.

00:22:13: You know the nrc.

00:22:14: It's it's joked over-the-years.

00:22:16: their job is to say no.

00:22:19: I think that with a number of pieces of legislation from last administration through this one as um i Think reset the focus of the nRC too take advantage Of clean aspect of nuclear, the national security and energy security aspect of Nuclear in the United States.

00:22:40: And I think we're going to see projects be adjudicated more quickly with the NRC than we have in the past – that will be important!

00:22:53: The last thing i'll mention is related to the generation for reactor designs.

00:23:01: When you look at um, ten CFR fifty-fifty nine and that's the safety evaluation of nuclear power plants in the code federal regs.

00:23:11: It's all based on light water.

00:23:13: so ninety percent.

00:23:14: what you see.

00:23:15: there is a lightwater related uh... safety design aspect so anticipated transient without scram or loss of coolant.

00:23:24: those are all like water problems.

00:23:26: When you get to gen four, those are not Gen Four problems.

00:23:29: So a lot of what's in the safety regs right now simply don't apply.

00:23:34: so we have been hearing may hear about part fifty three That is supposed to be for advanced designs.

00:23:44: We'd really like to see the NRC Be able to deal with the designs based on their design Not base What's uh?

00:23:51: In The current federal regs.

00:23:54: We'd like to see that come to fruition as well where you'll have deal with a lot of other stuff, seismic fire cyber security all those things.

00:24:05: But what it comes through the reactor designs is.

00:24:08: I mentioned earlier these Gen four reactors don't have problems at light water reactors half designed for.

00:24:16: So, Mike as I listen to you.

00:24:18: We have sort of a legacy of nuclear.

00:24:21: we Have some new things being built and brought up To life in modernized now but it's hard to really know.

00:24:31: where are we?

00:24:32: Are we late or early?

00:24:34: Where were we in nuclear right Now?

00:24:39: And what is just around the corner?

00:24:41: Is this something that we're going to start seeing quickly?

00:24:45: Five years, fifty years you know.

00:24:47: Well we had a nuclear renaissance quote-unquote in the two thousands and that brought a number of early site permits.

00:25:00: A lot of utilities looked at constructing Nuclear power plants.

00:25:05: The only ones that came out of that were Vogel III & IV.

00:25:09: so That was an environment, however where certain things are no longer true.

00:25:17: So we were flush with capacity in the two thousands and there's a number of reasons for that I won't go into...that long-capacity situation does not exist any longer.

00:25:29: The other thing did not exist is this demand growth.

00:25:36: And the growth isn't just hyperscalars and data center developers.

00:25:40: We've got building electrification, we've got transportation electrification in reindustrialization In The United States reshoring of supply chains near shoring of supply chain etc.

00:25:53: all Of those things are combining to create a Growth picture that we really haven't seen since before the nineties and even goes back to the nineteen seventies.

00:26:03: but we've dealt with this in the past.

00:26:06: And you know that's what is different.

00:26:08: so your not only replacing existing stock, you are growing and need net new.

00:26:18: So a portion of that is nuclear.

00:26:21: clearly were building alot gas because we can do it quickly today But that's going to run out of runway as well, and nuclear is what we're planning on doing in the thirties.

00:26:33: And lining up you'll make things need happen-to support them.

00:26:40: So I think you've left some really good bread crumbs along the trail here so people might have a sense where they are gonna go with this answer.

00:26:48: but i want ask looking ahead for say twenty fifty or beyond What do you expect the power generation mix to look like?

00:26:56: And what role did you expect nuclear to play alongside some of those things we touched on with renewables, the geothermal and are some of these also getting interesting innovations as well.

00:27:09: Yeah it's another very good question.

00:27:12: I'll start with wind solar storage.

00:27:16: We're going to have a renewable as pretty big mix of our fuel mix Going forward.

00:27:24: I think what we're going to see is more store is more storage and solar than we see.

00:27:30: wind Solar, it's very easy to build.

00:27:34: you need a field That's not shaded.

00:27:36: if you can put a solar plant just about anywhere i mean You know It's sad that sun goes down every night And it gets dark in the wintertime.

00:27:43: but um its uh it Is a reasonably predictable asset?

00:27:50: to large outages over great geographies.

00:27:54: yet yeah gets cloudy but it's typically cloudy in a low local area not over vast loss of the country.

00:28:01: wind on the other hand is more challenged.

00:28:04: we have taken up most of the good wind places that are easily connected to the grid.

00:28:13: We're now looking at places where we have to build billions of dollars of transmission To get wind into the load centers and when unfortunately in many places It blows.

00:28:24: When you don't want it to blow at night During the spring during the fall And then, um this is a phenomenon that we've seen both on our continent and On the European continent.

00:28:37: The wind can stop And when it's not windy, It could be not windy over a vast geographical area.

00:28:45: So you know...it has got to be windy somewhere?

00:28:47: That is not very true adage.

00:28:49: Yes!

00:28:50: It will be sunny some where But wind.

00:28:52: unfortunately have those what they call in Europe doldrums Where its just not windy and then that resource isn't working.

00:29:01: Those are the challenges there.

00:29:03: Storage Is great resources for solar.

00:29:08: As you know, the duck curve in California pushes the peak into the evening and storage can help but clip that peak.

00:29:16: It's very good.

00:29:17: Storage is not however something that could handle say a seven-day wind outage on the central part of United States.

00:29:25: so there has to be something else.

00:29:27: people realize we do need dispatchable reliable clean energy.

00:29:34: You know, we kind of call it the great horse race going into the late twenty thirties and early twenty forties.

00:29:41: Is a good to be nuclear?

00:29:42: And then within that is there going to be fission or is it going to fusion?

00:29:47: Then I think the dark horse in this race as we've been characterizing many of our clients is geothermal.

00:29:54: so if you could punch hole in the ground thirty two maybe fifty thousand feet ,you can have geo thermal anywhere.

00:30:03: You don't need to have it outside a Yellowstone, you know near a fault or where the magma is pushing up close to surface of earth.

00:30:12: But you can also use it in Chicago and Pittsburgh.

00:30:15: And that's an interesting possibility.

00:30:20: Geothermal is dispatchable as always on its clean and if we get these drilling technologies to work could be reasonably inexpensive too.

00:30:31: So, it'll be very interesting to see out of those clean dispatchable options which are the ones that win and when they win.

00:30:41: Interesting!

00:30:42: Do I dare ask you what's going to win?

00:30:47: Well as i look up in twenty fifty we're gonna have a lot legacy natural gas still on system.

00:30:56: I don't think we're going to have very many coal plants operating.

00:31:01: We'll have a lot of you know wind solar storage, and i think were gonna have a lotta gigawatts of nuclear fission.

00:31:09: And that's just going be legacy the twenty thirties.

00:31:13: what will interesting is if these newer technologies fusion an advanced geothermal Can become commercializable?

00:31:23: The extent which they can start penetrate the fuel mix.

00:31:26: by that point It's a matter of time for fusion.

00:31:31: I'm, you know less matter-of-time For advanced geothermal.

00:31:36: it is no small feat to dig or drill the hole that deep in the crust To access the kind of heat you need for reliable geothermal.

00:31:45: All

00:31:47: right all right.

00:31:47: So i'm hearing there Is uh You Know A huge case from nuclear here?

00:31:51: Pretty good Case for solar and then a little bit Of mixed support of legacy And we'll see what comes out.

00:32:00: So Mike, uh... We've been talking about this growing demand the ability for us to sort of start feeling that demand.

00:32:09: You know where you live in an interesting world Where there's some places That have pretty abundant energy Others sometimes they have outages There are data deserts and all these things Going forward.

00:32:21: How real is this demand?

00:32:25: growth boom that we're having for data centers, AI usage among all the other things were using and powering today.

00:32:33: Are you bullish on long-term growth in energy demand driven by AI?

00:32:38: Do you think current projections are overestimating what's actually needed or going to be needed?

00:32:46: We will go through hype cycle such as it is.

00:32:51: but I think at I'm more bullish on power demand, and that power demand is really the precursor for information demand.

00:33:04: And as it's predicated on the ability of us to be able produce reasonably priced power on-demand in scale that if we can do those things There are uses that we don't even consider today, That will be using the power for in future.

00:33:30: One of the metaphors or examples I like to take a look at is what happened with telecom?

00:33:39: So telecom was ten dollars per month.

00:33:42: you've got wall mounted rotary phone became push button phone.

00:33:46: it's big innovation.

00:33:47: but when Information what service, What utility you were getting from that?

00:33:54: and let's say the eighties to what your getting today with the iPhone in your hand.

00:33:59: It is night and day.

00:34:00: I think we are going see same thing for things that we electrify.

00:34:05: We're going to electrify our transportation To a large extent, we will electrify homes or buildings And i think we'll rely on information services That we can't even contemplate today that are going to require very large amounts of power.

00:34:24: And it'll be something you don't think about paying when you pay a couple hundred dollars for a cell bill, uh...you know..today It has no relationship with what you paid for telecommunication services decades ago.

00:34:39: So I think were gonna see something similar in nature.

00:34:43: if its as big trajectory i dont'know But I think we're going to follow a trajectory similar to that.

00:34:50: No, it is true you know i think before was like ah do I need this?

00:34:54: It was almost optional right whereas now it's anyone and everyone else...I NEED the phone as much data as possible!

00:35:02: I need continuous access.

00:35:06: so um not-now you just have me thinking of what's around the corner that I haven't even thought about yet Mike.

00:35:14: yeah So I'd be on the bullish end of the spectrum.

00:35:17: All right, Mike.

00:35:17: Well thank you for your valuable insights today and with that we're going to wrap up this episode.

00:35:22: Mike again thanks.

00:35:24: it's been a really wonderful conversation.

00:35:26: I appreciate everything he shared with us.

00:35:28: in these strategies they are gonna help business owners navigate the nuclear energy landscape And know what to keep an eye on where to spot opportunities.

00:35:36: so Thank You Again For Your Time.

00:35:38: Absolutely because We Really Appreciate The Time Spend Today

00:35:42: Absolutely.

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